DIYHiFi.org

Hi,

Can anyone tell me what kind of results one should expect from the various Nichicon audio grade caps? I've seen next to nothing on them, which leads me to conclude they must be junk. A few have raved about the bass, others stated "cotton in ears".

I'm tempted to try a few but haven't the money to waste. What I'm after is a 100Vdc cap of about 10 to 22uF, but it must have truly exceptional sonic qualities, and I think preferably, clean cut and well defined, grain free highs with full extension, and the usual neutral and natural tonality.

So would I be barking up the wrong tree with something like Nichicon KZ, or can you recommend something else?

_________________
'I am... everything is... changed... they're calling... your face... interwoven... who is...

I'm still wondering what's truly unique about these to qualify them as "audio grade". low ESR? low leakage?

And I reiterate my belief that if a component changes the sound of a circuit, it means one of two things:

- The component was improperly chosen, or
- The circuit that the component was put in was improperly designed or selected, making it overly sensitive to the characteristics of said component.

I'd start by describing what this capacitor is being used for.

Some time ago I was measuring a dac with my soundcard and it was pretty good.
But I wanted to change the relatively bulky film output coupling caps (compared to the small PCB of the dac) with some "good" (!), smaller electrolytics.
I had a bag of 47uF/16V Panasonic Pureism "audio" caps and so they went in.
Measured again and there was much more distortion.
I thought something else was wrong, checked again and again... no, it was the output caps.
The sound was not as bad as the measurements would make me believe, though.

_________________
Carlos Filipe

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein

a metallised film motor start cap might suit.

_________________
regards
Andrew T.

I was told that should be a motor run, not motor start cap? What is your opinion on that and where one should use each in audio application (psu, coupling, bypass, etc.)

These might gives you an idea as to whats different, Nichicon seems to be most concerned about vibration

NICHICON CORP patents
Abstract of JP 2000299251 (A)
PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED: To obtain well-balanced sounds over the range from low to high pitches and improve sound quality by forming a separator of a banana fiber- incorporated paper. SOLUTION: An aluminum electrolytic capacitor has a capacitor element 6 thereof prepared by forming a separator 3 of a banana fiber and Manila hemp-incorporated paper and rolling an anode foil 1 and a cathode foil 2 with the separator 3 interposed therebetween together. The element 6 is then housed in a case while impregnated with an electrolytic solution, and the opening of the case is closed with an elastic closure body. A 50 &mu m thick paper incorporating 50% of Manila hemp fiber and 50% of banana fiber, or a 50 &mu m thick paper incorporating 20% of Manila hemp fiber and 80% of banana fiber is used as the separator 3. This improves the resolution over the low pitch range, increases the amount of sound information, and provides well-balanced sounds.

Abstract of JP 2000299252 (A)
PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED: To obtain well-balanced sounds over the range from low to high pitches and improve sound quality by forming a separator of a sheep wool fiber-incorporated paper. SOLUTION: An aluminum electrolytic capacitor has a capacitor element 6 thereof prepared by forming a separator 3 of a sheep wool fiber and Manila hemp-incorporated paper and rolling an anode foil 1 and a cathode foil 2 with the separator 3 interposed therebetween together. The element 6 is then housed in a case while impregnated with an electrolytic solution, and the opening of the case is closed with an elastic closure body. A 50 &mu m thick paper incorporating 70 wt.% of Manila hemp fiber and 30 wt.% of sheep wool fiber, or a 50 &mu m thick paper incorporating 90 wt.% of Manila hemp fiber and 10 wt.% of sheet wool fiber is used as the separator 3. Thus, by using the paper incorporating the sheep wool fiber which exhibits excellent uniformity, well-balanced sounds can be obtained over the range from low to high pitches.

Abstract of JP 2008300684 (A)
PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED: To provide an electrolytic solution for driving an electrolytic capacitor and the electrolytic capacitor, which are capable of showing the stabilized value of leakage current within the temperature range of not higher than 105[deg.]C and showing high acoustic quality when the same is employed as a capacitor for sound. ; SOLUTION: The electrolytic solution, exhibiting the electric characteristics of the electrolytic capacitor stabilized within the temperature range until 105[deg.]C and exhibiting high acoustic quality as the capacitor for sound, can be obtained by a method wherein [gamma]-butyrolactone is contained as a main solvent and at least one kind or more of subsolvents is contained while organic carboxylic acid or the salt thereof is contained as a solute and [gamma]-valerolactone is contained.


NIPPON CHEMICON patents
Abstract of JP 2001093782 (A)
PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED: To obtain an electrolytic capacitor improving the reproduced musical quality of an audio unit. SOLUTION: A glass or aluminum core is disposed in the center of a capacitor element made by winding an anodic foil and a cathodic foil via a separator. Preferably, the core has a hollow portion. An element winding tape to fix the capacitor element is placed on the side of the capacitor element. When the capacitor element is impregnated with an electrolyte, even if an electrolytic sheet swells, the capacitor element is not deformed, which results in preventing the deformation of a current waveform and providing high quality musical reproduction.

Hope this helps
Regards
James

_________________

That's certainly a wide brush you have. Either the parts or circuits aren't good enough or the job they're needed for is too tough for them? C'mon, in reality a lot of it comes down to compromise between least evils and nothing is ideal.

Don't forget either all coins are two faced SOBs. You could massage or tweak a circuit or system until it becomes unresponsive, sonically let's say, to a change in any one or even groups of parts. That wouldn't necessarily mean improved, but it could be the exact opposite.

You might even consider the more neutral and transparent it gets, the more sensitive it becomes to simple changes in components. Consider that if you did have the "perfect" circuit, any change at all would have to throw it out of equilibrium from perfection somehow.

So what's audiophile in a cap? Probably everything in a good one. Low ESR isn't written in gold but it should be reasonably lowish, good connections between leads and foil, how they go about etching the foils, the type of seperator iself by reason of damping and probably consistency, the type of endseal, and probably countless other little factors such as overall quality in and selection of materials. Most "audio grade" caps though, seem to have some extra gritt thrown in for additional damping which seems to make them better immune to signal related artifacts.... cerafine for, silmic and black gate for examples.

_________________
'I am... everything is... changed... they're calling... your face... interwoven... who is...

Here's a half-japanese datasheet for the Panasonic Pureism caps (for "audio").

_________________
Carlos Filipe

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein

Sonically you'd think so but unfortunately space constraints force the high volumetric efficiency of electrolytic, ie. I'm screwed. It needn't even be low ESR, but it must sound as good as possible. NHG is an obvious answer on the ordinary side, 036 RSP is getting there but extremely hard to find, and other than being well made it's still semi ordinary.

I think an audio grade cap with their added internal damping might make all the difference in this rather odd application I have for it. Out of all audio grade caps, it is getting easier to find the full gammut of Nichicon, but there was both technically and sonically little to nothing known of them.

___

Some motor start caps are also motor run caps, all motor run caps are motor start caps, they're arguably the same. The values required fall into a common range for such a cap, and film is generally preferred over electrolytic. People seem to like using the oiled filled variety as a dirt cheap method of getting an "audiophile" oil filled cap. Use them for bypassing power supplies or whatever else, where you have the room to spare.

_________________
'I am... everything is... changed... they're calling... your face... interwoven... who is...

Incredibly, as it answers some longstanding questions I've had about them and assures me they're at least worth a try.

I think I must have read some time ago about their having bananas in them but must have dismissed it as a joke. Sheep's wool is interesting. I wonder which ones have what. They must be using a few other things as well given the variety in their audio line.

You might check out Silmics, they go a step further than most wrt internal damping. There is no elastic tape, they continue with several turns of the silk infused seperator, and stuff it into the can like a ball of cotton, it's brilliant, and it makes them tricky to use. I'm almost willing to bet Nichicon might do the same in at least one of their lines.

Anyway I have collected part of a document that I think may have been originally uploaded by John Curl? I'd sure like to see the entire document, but can't seem to find it.

_______________

Carlos, I'd like to try that one someday but they sure haven't made it available.

The ECA variety they've got at farnell looks ordinary in comparison.

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/317365.pdf

What's your take on the pureism sound, worth the hype?

_________________
'I am... everything is... changed... they're calling... your face... interwoven... who is...

Not bad, at least as a coupling cap. But I wouldn't call it "audio"(phile), if space is no problem a good film cap is a better option.
If space is scarce I prefer some bipolar United Chemi-Con electrolytics that I have around and they don't have golden lettering and fancy names.

_________________
Carlos Filipe

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein

Well, we're talking about audio "grade" here, someone else snuck in the term audiophile. Space is always a problem, and you can't always use a film as first option either. Apart from that there are some audio"phile" film caps that are too strong in character or simply too imperfect themselves. Many of those are just rebadged industrial grade caps with nothing else going for them other than a giant price tag.

UCC once had an audio "grade" cap, I don't think they make it anymore, and what they offered in place was anything but.

_________________
'I am... everything is... changed... they're calling... your face... interwoven... who is...

I contacted Nichicon earlier today to see if they might be more forthcoming in available information, citing a complete lack of it.

I mentioned some of the findings here, including banana fibre and wool.. asked which have what, as if it mattered to me.

I also mentioned the article mentioned here, asked if there was a complete copy kicking around they might share or anything like it.

The first reply was that "it really is all in the selection of materials".. we alreadly know that's only one aspect of it.

I proded again by asking would you have us believe they're stuffed with gold and muse or have you anything more to offer.

The second reply was that it is proprietary, but that aiduphiles really like them (even though most don't seem to). What's an aiduphile, you ask? Apparently I was troll enough to have to dismiss via mobile..... maybe I should follow that up and ask for samples, if I didn't cause an accident already.

Edit:

Samples requested... now to hold my breath.

_________________
'I am... everything is... changed... they're calling... your face... interwoven... who is...

motor run are for continuous duty at mains voltage.
If that is the voltage rating you NEED then that is what you must meet or exceed.
You asked for 100Vdc rating.
Motor start easily meets this requirement.

_________________
regards
Andrew T.