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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:18 pm 
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Dog
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Where can I buy a license, to use this framework?
Because I think I'm hearing things.
The Numerik is now sounding orgasmatic, after much tinkering.
Oh, if only we had a framework... :D

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:29 pm 
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carlosfm
There is nothing 'romantic' in what I propose and original signal is the recording signal. Please stop trying to obfuscate what should be clear.

JockoHomo
I have stated this before but I will repeat it for you. The framework discourages all types of fascism, including the kind practiced by those that presume to present their hearing as the standard. The framework directs us to a true distribution curve of sonic preference and gives us a reference map of electrical characteristics to achieve the desired audio playback character. Nothing like it has existed before now and contrary to what you have stated, it is workable, flexible and has a plan for increasing levels of adoption which directly corresponds to its sophistication and utility. It has the unfortunate limitation of being ineffective without significant adoption which you all seem very keen to exploit in your criticism. Even one simple amp project executed with this framework by a small participant sample would be enough to highlight its effectiveness. The first step is defining the audio playback and making those definitions overlap as little as possible and I believe this is adequately performed by my three suggested postulates:
sound stage
timbral accuracy
PRaT
If the dialog herein were focused on the discussion of my definitions instead of the nay saying, mocking and off topic rubbish being presented we'd be a lot further along than we are. Of course, progress never suits those that feel comfortable in the status quo and that may be the source of the recalcitrance I'm experiencing.

Martin Clark
Welcome. As Ricky Gervais is fond of saying, "are we havin' a laugh?".

gmarsh
How far down the road we are will dictate the scenario of an audio purchaser in the future but let's assume that several successful diy projects were recorded with this framework, there was significant participation and a distribution curve of sonic attributes are cataloged and presented along with their measured electrical characteristics. Manufacturers will take note, compare the results of the framework with their designs and direct changes in prototypes to verify the findings. They acquire confidence in the framework and begin to present the framework references in their promotional literature. Ultimately, all audio products are defined in terms of the framework postulates to the consumer. That is a summation of how things will play out and there will be many steps in between but it will work. Even in a muted and crippled initial form the framework will better reflect the audio outcome to the consumer than what is in use today. This will result in a greater consumer satisfaction of audio playback, a growing sophistication in their collective listening taste, a bigger market and a greater value assessment trend for better audio.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:11 pm 
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God

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Assuming that this framework will work. Why are you beating us with it on a diy forum and not writing a paper for the AES? That's the only place you'll have any luck with something like this.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:30 pm 
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Dog
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yldouright wrote:
carlosfm
There is nothing 'romantic' in what I propose and original signal is the recording signal. Please stop trying to obfuscate what should be clear.


The thing is, how do you conclude that you have achieved the "truest rendering of the original signal" (yes, the recording).
I'm about to throw the towel to the floor, it seems like I'm talking to a door. Damn frameworkers...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:30 pm 
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Benjamin
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Sorry, bub, but any kind of "framework" implies an order, where there presently is no order.

And I don't take no steenking orders. Which is why I was booted out of the Army.

And guess what................no one I know, who actually designs high end audio, is going to take any silly orders, and adhere to some framework. You are nuts if you think they will spend 1 uSec thinking about this. At least some of us have taken the time to try to explain to you, without giving you the old heave-ho, like that other place, why this will never work.

"Persistence, in the face of the impossible, is not a winning hand to play." (Apologies to some politician from my youth, whose famous speech I have just appropriated and butchered.) (Not a political statement, just a parody. I like parodies.)

As to Mike's point.................

First, he would have to be a member. To be a member, he would have to work in the bidnis, and have 2 folks in the bidnis vouch for him.

Then he would have to submit his idea to some board. That is controlled by Shitlips & Co.

Need I go on?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:50 pm 
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Benjamin
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yldouright wrote:
This will result in a greater consumer satisfaction of audio playback, a growing sophistication in their collective listening taste, a bigger market and a greater value assessment trend for better audio.


Over on that other forum...................you know, the one where none of us are welcome...............

Some speaker designer, of moderate fame, ponders what the future of audio is. He is not optimistic. He uses as an example some kickstarter project (I really hate all that crowd funding crapola), where someone is going to create the greatest speaker gizmo, of all time, that will gives us the most realistic sound ever!!!!!!!!!!!!

Built with a handful of 2" drivers, and lot of DSP hocus-pocus.

But, if you take time to wallow through that thread............some interesting things emerge.

Back in the day, we bought the album, took it home, and played it until the grooves started to turn white. If we got to see them in concert..................WOW! That made it better. But, we still had the album.

Kids don't have albums now. They d/l something. If they like it.

They may like it, if they go to the concert. The concert is the crux of this. The concert is a social event, something to remember, and say "I was there when so-and-so exposed her full butt checks, and got arrested. It was so kewl."

They later d/l the music, as something to remember the concert by. That is the direction the industry is going, because that is the direction society is going. (Which is probably portends a blassse future, but that is another point, that has nothing to do with audio.)

So, even if this framework could work (it can't), and even if it lead to a new glorious future, for audio (which will most likely die with my generation), it is probably all for naught, as the day is soon upon us will no one will give a crap about audio.

High end audio has been slowly dying, for the last 20 years. How much more crap can you sell to aging hippies, who already have a closet full of old audio crap they no longer listen to? How many more formats can you come out with, each one promising a more faithful reproduction of "Dark Side of the Moon"? And we will say ""Crap! Another version of that? I haven't listened to the last 2 versions of that I bought. I give up."

But a framework is going to fix all of that.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:42 pm 
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The Troll does not fit into my framework!
:D

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:14 pm 
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Benjamin
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Uhm...............he is serious.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:30 pm 
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Dog
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Jocko Homo wrote:
High end audio has been slowly dying, for the last 20 years.


Yup.
The business is bad, getting worse and worse in the last 5 ~ 6 years.
I now see "soundbars" that fetch for some amazing 800 Euros. It gives me vomits.
And people are willing to spend this kind of money on that. And on ultra expensive mobile phones. With bluetooth. To play music. On the soundbar.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:50 am 
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Some days Jocko I hate it when you are right.

The pro world is still selling gear but that market has changed a lot too. It's all about adding color not clean recording.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:08 am 
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carlosfm
The consensus will define the truest rendering for most of us. We will define it individually for ourselves along the distribution curve produced by the consensus. If I am one side of a wall you are definitely the other. When consumers read the specs of the sound bar, they see no difference between that and a full size audio system. Result? The manufacturers of full size systems decontent their product line with cheaper parts and less attention to detail in order to compete. Result? They look for easily identifiable product differentiation in the form of specs so they raise bandwidth specs and lower distortion numbers without considering the sonic artifacts introduced by these ‘improvements’. Result? Everything starts sounding equally bad and audio products become detached from their original purpose of reproducing an audio recording. Result? Music producers have less incentive to produce good sounding recordings (ie: recordings with good soundstage, timbral accuracy and PRaT). Result? The standard for reference gear declines to the point where fewer and fewer people even know what level of playback fidelity is possible. Result? AES begins endorsing double blind tests biased toward a null result to support the manufacturers of the new crappy products. This degenerative process is what is in effect today. It’s the reason for the distorted sense of value assessment and lack of interest from the buying public that is hurting many producers of good sounding gear. This is the race to mid-fi I referred to in an earlier post.

ElsoKwak
Welcome. Did you read this entire thread before making your comment?

JockoHomo
My reply to carlosfm addresses part of your analysis of the decline in audio reproduction. Your assessment of the cultural shift is accurate. Music entertainment has become event driven and less introspective but could that be because audio playback has ceased to be exciting? If I have a muted recording playing on a muted system, I am too far away from the artist’s intent to have involvement with the music. I remember going to many live shows in my youth and bringing ear plugs because the sound was so bad. There were a few artists that I could enjoy without them but as a general rule, live shows were not as good as the recording. You went to the live show to ‘meet the artist(s)’. You played the recording and grooved on the music with your peer group in your home. Now, the home playback has gotten so bad for the majority that they need to see a live show for the music to be conveyed. Admittedly, live sound has improved a great deal but your relationship with a recording should be more than just a poor shadow reference of the artist. I still remember feeling the deep cello on a recording of the Mystic by Van Morrison for the first time and noting how I could close my eyes and sense him with the band in the room. It still gives me chills when I hear it. There are many recordings like this that just wow you with their communicative ability when they are rendered correctly by good gear. No one is ordering you to do anything. This is something that will ultimately help designers like you by putting an appropriate value on your products. I still don’t understand why you don’t see this as the natural result of the adoption of this framework. My persistence has nothing to do with obnoxiousness, in fact, it depresses me deeply that none reading see the merit in my effort. Your prediction of all those hard won years of knowledge dying with you and your ilk is in danger of becoming a reality. My framework would preserve that knowledge and assure your name would remain in audio long after the silverfish have eaten through your library.

Mikeg
JockoHomo has highlighted one important reason why AES is not an option but there are others. I’m not imposing this on anyone but I am compelled to report what I feel are the many benefits of following this path for audio designers that care about the sonic result. Do you believe my view of the audio industry is faulty?

mlloyd1
Do you still have a headache?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:31 am 
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Dog
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Yup, he is serious.
Elso is trolling. :D

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:03 am 
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Benjamin
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Jocko Homo wrote:
"Today, Poland....................tomorrow, the audio world!"


OK, I was at another buddy's house today (obviously not Phred), and we could not see the picture that went with that quotation. Instead, a pseudo-advert from the place I borrowed it from.

Can the rest of you guys see it? If not, I will have to find my DVD of that, and figure out how to capture that image.

You would think it wouldn't be hard, for an engineer. You assume I have a computer that can play a DVD.

The irony is.............with this crappy ol' computer, I can see it, and with their fancy mePad, they can not. Progress.

Today, the computer world...............tomorrow.................??????????????


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:46 pm 
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God

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I have a migraine headache.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:52 pm 
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Cow
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Jocko Homo wrote:
Over on that other forum...................you know, the one where none of us are welcome...............


Uhm... Speak for yourself :)


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