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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:01 pm 
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Pig

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Kuei Yang Wang wrote:
Avoid obvious ana-harmonic (or dissonant) distortion even at fairly low levels, but devil may care about 1% H2 at 90dB SPL and 3% H2at 100dB.

Harmonics barely matter, when they are low order.

But... The harmonic spectrum does give an indication of how the device under test or the system will produce IMD products. That is a subject given short shrift. At some point, the power contained in the IMD products can easily equal the power of the desired tones. Since they are hardly part of the spectrum produced by a voice, a musical instrument, or a cricket doing a mating call, just how natural do those tones sound?

Oops.

D.E.L. Shorter was one of the first to jump up and down over this back in the late 40's or so. (Imagine if he did that now on, and what the response on certain internet forums would be...)

Anyway, in order to keep the IMD products low, especially in systems with feedback, you need stupidly good harmonic performance, especially higher order products. It's the math behind it all that gets you.

Now, add in IM products generated from various conversion clocks that leak about, aliased conversion products, power supply remnants (diode switching and transformer resonances, not to mention non-linearities in the power transformer itself when it gets hammered with a current pulse demand), and various detritus riding on the power mains and what do you have?

DSD is oh so much better... :banghead:


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:44 pm 
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Dog
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Kuei Yang Wang wrote:
Carlos,

carlosfm wrote:
The wider soundstage and more "air" and sense of space I also notice with PCM, the higher the sample rate. As I've said before, 24/192 is audibly "wider", more "airy" and even sounds faster than 24/96, which is already very good.


Have you ever tried digital filterless DAC's? I find on my DAC very little if any difference in sound-staging of the same recording at 44.1 and 192K, provided they are all played filterless or with the very minimal "organic" filter.


Of course I did, but back then, only to play 16/44.1 CD.
But the problem with PCM is that brickwall filters are applied when recording each audio track, when mixing them, when normalizing (yuk!), when applying dynamics compression (triple yuk!), basically everytime they touch the signal, on the recording/production stage.
The replay chain can't really solve all the problems that were already done in the recording (probably just avoid to make things even worse).
For me, the advantage of DSD is the absence of digital filters, in both recording and playback. Of course, I'm talking about pure, unprocessed DSD recordings.
In this case, I agree with the Sony/Philips marketing from 15 years ago, about SACD and the advantage of not having digital filters. It was not just marketing.
If PCM was "perfect", we wouldn't in 2014 still be playing with digital filter types, as we are for some 20 years (some CD players in the mid 90's - some by Sony - had 7 or 8 selectable digital filters and/or dither levels).
There's nothing perfect, PCM, DSD or analog. Every format has it's drawbacks.

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:06 am 
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Muriel
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C,

carlosfm wrote:
Of course I did, but back then, only to play 16/44.1 CD. But the problem with PCM is that brickwall filters are applied when recording each audio track,
when mixing them, when normalizing (yuk!), when applying dynamics compression (triple yuk!), basically everytime they touch the signal, on the recording/production stage.


This applies to much material, but not all. Did you try some "purist" stuff? What was the effect on soundstage?

Ciao T

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:15 am 
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Dog
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Kuei Yang Wang wrote:
This applies to much material, but not all. Did you try some "purist" stuff? What was the effect on soundstage?

Ciao T


At 16/44.1, HDCD sounds noticeably wider, even though it is processed through an 8x oversampling digital filter (in my case, the PMD100).
The soundstage opens up considerably when an HDCD CD/recording is decoded by an HDCD CDP or dac.
I could easily turn on/off HDCD on my dac by touching the digital volume on my old Yamaha CDP.
The most noticeable effect when the HDCD light went off was that the soundstage collapsed.
HDCD is all about dithering, so in this case there seems to be something else goin' on.

Btw, what "purist" stuff?

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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein


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