DIYHiFi.org

In general, we are DIYers for many reasons. Saving money is one of them. I'm not even sure how to ask this question, as each machine is different. Some have tubes, some have fancy transformers, etc. Maybe as a percentage of retail?

That is, would you pay 30% of retail for all of the parts to a kit? Say a manufacturer sold a really good EL84 push/pull amplifier for $1500. Would you pay $500 in order to DIY it? Or less?

Would anyone here fork over $1100 in raw parts to build a state-of-the-art linestage?

jh

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Jim Hagerman

Nope. I don't see why parts for a line stage should cost so much. Might pay a sensible amount for plans to build one, but only if a full set of data were provided to support the SOTA claim.

My suggestion, FWIW, is to follow the Linkwitz model and do what Linkwiz does. Put up a no-BS website, give schematics, fully characterise your designs, skip the tweako mumbo jumbo, and sell a set of plans, with PC boads and detailed DIY instructions, for a couple of hundred dollars per preamp/power amp, etc. Let the prospective builder buy his own parts.

As a small start-up, why on Earth would you want to stock an inventory of expensive parts and tie up capital? Stock and sell only selected high value items, say matched FETs, pairs of valves, or output transformers.

Jim,

I've bought quite a few DIY kits over the coarse of many years, most of them ended up being modified to not resemble much of the original kit anymore. Mostly this was due to the fact that the designer of the kit set a few basic requirements that I wouldn't have, for example using normal caps instead of film caps at the output of a DAC kit. You end up mounting film caps in ackward locations, and there's many similar examples I can give you. Nevertheless I bought these kits knowing they have these limitations, usually due to time constraints. I got a busy daytime job and designing something from the ground up would take weeks, if not months.

But let me give you a bit of feedback about your own kits, as that's what you're more or less hinting at. I've given your HagDac kit some thought but decided against it as it requires me to design a second PCB that will mate with its connectors. Furthermore you use SMD components for the power supply caps surrounding the ICs and for the I/V and filter stage.

Since those components usually benefit greatly from substituting by better ones I'm left with very little upgrade options. For a DIY kit to be worthwhile to a large amount of prospective customers I think it needs to be designed with this in mind, hence provide extra solder pads for different lead spacings (polyprops are a bit bigger than polyester), etc.

Best regards,

Sander Sassen

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Indoctrinated in the ways of the dark side

just as a counterpoint... i'd gladly buy a well-designed DIY board that uses SMD components. i don't care to tweak so much, i'd rather have it done right in the first place, and SMD done right is better than through-hole for stuff like DAC's.

My 2 bits as a consumer

For a digital project, I would want a turn key solution as the digital stuff completely alludes me. That doesn't seem to be the case over here. As for amps and pre amps, I've moved on to tubes for a while and I only do things from scratch. In less than an hour, I can have a tranparency from MS Paint ready to iron onto a board. In another hour I have a board ready to stuff. I realize this wouldn't be an option with SMD and 2 sided stuff.

Also consider you market. (that's obdiously what your doing) Wth SMD, you might as well sell populated boards instead of kits. Who wants the PITA of soldering SMD's. Then the DYI'er is only making the case. Who has the equipment to do that. So now you're left selling complete gear. The you have to service reviewers. Who wants to do that.

Moral of the story...don't quit you day job. Do this for the fun of it. Help someone along the way and he'll help you. If you think you have a neat solution to something, offer boards and/or parts at a cost to defray the cost of your stuff and enjoy. Or start makeing audiophool cables and hock them elswhere. I've noticed quite a few people have caught on the power conditioer racket. There's gold in them thar pockets.

Please disregard this post as I've had a few

It's hard to say. I forked over considerably more than that for Welborne DRD Kits, but as I had never built anything with high voltage before, I figured it was a chance to learn something about layout, etc. So, there was value added beyond just the great amps. Further, having done it once, I probably wouldn't do it again as now I'd rather design my own. PCB kits, it seems limit the amount of learning that can be done. I'd never buy one of Ron's PCB based kits, for instance, though I am sure they are all fine. I just wouldn't learn that much. I also would essentially never buy commercial gear again unless it was something I just couldn't DIY (which means a squeezebox, and that's about it.) I would guess that for every hour I spend on DIY stuff, maybe 2 minutes is spent with a solderiing iron. More time is spend reading and thinking.

So, $500 for an EL43 based kit with learning? Yes, if I wanted an EL34 based amp. On a PCB? No.

As I say that, though, there are exceptions. A PCB that is designed for experimenting like tubelab.com's new one I might be willing to pay for.

Also, I have nothing against surface mount soldering (I designed and built this), and am willing to pay for PCBs in this case. I mention this as I'd buy a HagDac if I could buy the PCB only, but the price for an assembled one is too rich for my blood. However, in general I'd still rather design my own where I can, which means that a project needs to get pretty unweildy (and not fit on a half eurocard board as that is all the free version of Eagle supports.)

i would not pay one euro more than what the sum of parts prices at reichelt, schuro, farnell etc. would be.

Jim, it doesn't have much to do with comparing to a commercial (and finished) design.
In diy we (?) just think in the price of the PCB, parts, trafo and enclosure.
Look at how much does a Gaincard cost, and it only has a pair of chips inside and a pair of rotary switches with resistors for volume control. You wouldn't sell a kit for 1/3 the price, even if you included the trafo and an enclosure.
Btw and IMO the enclosure is the most boring thing to make (for someone like me that just likes electronics and not working with wood or aluminium or whatever material), and a readily finished and available chassis with all the necessary holes, plugs, switches that you need is only in dreams.
I would say that a kit that sells for something up to 150€, with PCB and parts (excluding trafo and chassis - posting is expensive, another problem) will probably sell to the most part of the world, as long as it's good value.
If we can get all those parts cheaper, we won't buy. As who sells kits should buy the parts in quantities, it's easy to sell cheaper that what we can get.

I hope this helps, at least it's one more oppinion.

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Carlos Filipe

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein

The responses so far have been very honest, which is great, but they also have been kind of disappointing. At least to me, and I have nothing at all to do with the audio industry at any level. (Well, if you count consumer as part of the industry, I guess that's not entirely true.)

From my perspective, if someone like Jim puts in a lot of time stocking parts, having PC boards fabricated, building cabinets, desgning, and optimizing, that is worth something. Whether you as a customer feel like it's something you want to spend your money on, well, that's your choice. But, I don't guess that most people give their work away for free; why should we begrudge somebody like him? To be sure, there's a lot of companies that place undo emphasis from my perspective on shiny metal and marketing, without matching performance, but I don't believe any of the DIY kit suppliers I've seen do this.

Now, if you feel you can do better yourself, that's something else. Or, if you feel that you can make something more to your taste, that's good too. Or, even if you just really like to do it all from the ground up, that's fine as well.

I guess the part I find disappointing is the relative lack of value placed on anybody's efforts. Whether it's the time that somebody like Jim puts into making a kit easily reproduced, or even your own time. I never thought that only money was driving people who tinker with high performance audio, but I could be wrong.

30% sounds reasonable, but it really depends how much the raw parts cost of the device is. I get the feeling that people do not mind paying $1000 for a kit, as long as the kit contained $800 in parts or something like that (not suggesting this ratio necessarily). Like Carlos said about the gainclones, I don't think anyone capable of building one would want to spend 1/3rd of what 47labs charges for one of them + psu.

Personally, I couldn't justify spending $1100 on a linestage but that doesn't mean there is no market for it. I've read of some people dropping more than that on power cords...

PCBs and enclosures are two of the most difficult parts of most DIY projects I think, not necessarily sourcing the other components. This depends on the type of product though, a p2p tube amp presents different difficulties and perhaps a more complete kit would be appropriate. I suppose it all boils down to how much support you want to give and if you want to do the bare PCB approach or the complete kit with step by step detailed instructions, which should cost more of course.

Hi Greg,

I'm surprised Jocko lets you go as far as you have. Must be because your are one of the texas boys.

Hi Jim Hagerman,

Speaking as an addicted DIY kit builder:

I think in audio your DIY kit will be judged by the sound not by the cost of the components. If your product is outstanding then you can charge a lot more than the component cost. Backup and after sales support is also important and costly. Your personality, ethics and professionalism are also part of the package as well. Looking at your website, I guess you probably know most of this already.

Selling cheap is not usually the best option, unless you can sell 100's of thousands of the product. You have to be profitable. Making only $10,000's after years of hard work is not worth the effort.

If you do the maths, I suspect the only ones making reasonable money from kits would be those cheap, generic electronic kit suppliers selling thousands a month. I imagine this end market is not really stimulating for a designer such as yourself.

regards

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Greg Erskine

I think you are missing the point altogether. Of course, Jim's time is worth something, but the 64,000 dollar question is how much? The product has to sell for a price that the typical DIYer is willing to pay. The majority of respondents have indicated that the target prices are too high. If the designer believes he has put, say, $ 50,000 worth of labour into a design, he'd better be prepared to amortise it over a great many units, not a handful. There are dozens of more than adequate power amp and line stage designs on the DIY scene. These set a ceiling on what a new entrant to the market can charge, unless he has someting totally unique to offer.

As an example, let us say a SS 100 W power amp is offered. It faces competition in the marketplace from free designs from JLH, Self, Leach, et al, clones of commercial amps like the Krell (see that other site), as well as semi-commerical ones from Greg Ball, Boberly, ESP, et al. A Leach low TIM pcb is around 15 -20 bucks, while Greg's is around 40 US. See what I mean about setting a ceiling on the selling price? Market economics at work. By the way, I have not even mentioned the used market. Have you looked at the second hand prices of stereo - as opposed to home theatre - electronics lately? Almost makes DIY superfluous.

Order and stock parts? Why bother, unless the part is unique to the design. Otherwise, the labour involved will jack up the kit price and scarce capital will be tied up in inventory. The DIYer will endeavor to get his own parts at the lowest possible price anyway. It's the nature of the DIY beast. Fabricating PCbs? Not a chance, they are outsourced.



It's not a matter of doing better, rather the vendor has to have realistic expectations.



Every member of this forum has his own ideas on what a designers labour and IP is worth, and will make his buying decisions accordingly. I do not believe anyone expects to get Greg Ball's PCBs for A $5 a pop, but how many would buy the SKA PCBs if they were $250 each? Very few I suspect. The trick for the vendor is to find the right price, and these days it is not that high, for better or worse.

The more I look at it, the more I believe Linkwitz got it just 'right' with his approach to selling the Orion. He offers something for every level of DIY, from bare plans, no PCBs, all the way to a complete turn-key system. Each level is priced very reasonably for the quality on offer. Sheer genius.

All of the above is IMHO, of course.

Jim H. You started this thread, time for you to chime in with your responses, and tell us exactly what you had in mind.

Hi greg #1,

Starting to sound like a sniper, mate! On the job?

Back on topic - I don't see why any DIYer should pay significantly more than the parts cost for a kit. The seller is generally little more than a cottage operation with low overheads and, if efficient, making their sustainable margin in quantity buys and astute component selection. And buying all high priced components under the banner 'you get what you pay for' doesn't hold water against a gifted designer with superior technology - the designer who can achieve more with less.

And if they suggest the amplifier NEEDS a transformer of 4 times the amp power or massive C to perform .... run, don't walk away!

Cheers,
greg

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THE Earth has just experienced its hottest December-February since
temperatures were first recorded 128 years ago, adding significant fire
to global warming concerns.

Right.
If the whole circuit is really innovative I really don't see it coming as a kit for the diyer.
It will probably appear first as a commercial product, under a brand name, and costing $$$$.
20 years later the circuit is already on the public domain (legally or ilegally, unfortunately) and someone starts making and selling kits...

So, really, a kit must have good value if it is to sell well, and most diyers know what things cost.
If it's a complex circuit the lazy ones may just pay instead of making it themselves, even if the schematic and PCB layout is available.

Btw I don't know if Erno Borbely sells large quantities of his kits (line preamps, power amps, etc), but at those prices I have my doubts.
I have enormous respect for Erno Borbely and his work, anyway.

In the end, this thread is a collection of oppinions, this matter is very personal, what each of us is willing to pay for a kit depends on our wallet on on the circuit itself.
Jim started this thread to hear each of us and our oppinions, that's how I see it.

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Carlos Filipe

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein

Think of this more as the Monty Python "Bruce" sketch, than the DIY equivalent of the "World According to Garp". I never read that. Reading weird stuff is Phred's domain.

OK...here goes:

Rule 1. It has to be cheap.
Rule 2. It has to be idiot proof. Difficult to do, as idiots always prove to be so damn ingenious.
Rule 3. It has to be cheap.
Rule 4. It can't use any exotic and/or esoteric parts. But you have to leave provision for them, because they will read on some forum that it needs them. And those exactly. And they will stick them in. Usually before it is even finished. (OK...the irony is the guy who designs it is not capable of deciding that, but some schmuck on some forum, with zero expertise other than shooting off his mouth, is capable of deciding that.)
Rule 5. It has to be cheap.
Rule 6. There is no Rule 6.
Rule 7. It has to be cheap.

Put in a different way....................

If someone competent designs it, no way will it sell at that price.

BUT.........!!!

Let some know-it-all (who really doesn't know anything) come out with something like that. Lots of hype, lots of BS, and a bizarre looking enclosure, the spawny git will probably hit it big.

"I hate it when that happens."

Jocko